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@WizardCrab: Skin Pricing Oddities

aceofsween··5 votes·990 views

Since, you're pretty much the authority (or at least the most public face authority) on Champion pricing, I had a question to ask you...

I know that this predates your tenure at Riot, but it was around the Hecarim/Varus release times where Riot's skins really began to reach the next level of quality. The newest ones have become really a cut above the older ones, and the pricing scheme introduced (one which I support and had suggested in the past) reflects that... With some glaring exceptions.

I'll give you an example. Night Hunter Rengar is one of the best skins I've seen in a while. I'm honestly surprised it's not at the 1350 price level, but because it is not, I'd say it is the pennacle of the 975 price point. Popstar Ahri would be another great example of some very high quality work in that price range. And then you have some very old, dated, and out of fashion skins that simply do not compare.

The skin I'm thinking of in particular is because it is on sale: Shurima Desert Zilean. However, that's not the only one that really made me think to myself, "Really? That's still a 975 skin?" Great example: Divine Soraka is also 975... the same price as Celestine Soraka, which is of much higher quality.

What's up with these weird older skins not really having the correct price point for their quality? Maybe it's a behind-the-scenes thing with these skins in which the time to develop them doesn't match the in-game experience, but some of them just seem to be placed incorrectly...

13 Comments

Linna Excel1 votes

Some of the price has to do with model differences and particles. Some of it has to do with the fact that the older stuff needs to be brought up to par. Take divine Soraka, Soraka was the first VU under the new system and riot was still learning about that. Celestine Soraka wasn't a VU, it was a new skin.

I think popstar ahri is that cheap because so many fans demanded that skin there'd be a riot on the forum is she was priced at 975. Plus I don't think they had to redo too many particle effects for her.

Another thing you have to think of is when a skin was made. The more recent ones generally have better textures. I think they are trying to go with a new art direction nowadays.

aceofsween1 votes

I'm aware of that, which is why I mentioned both of those in the post. However, there are older skins which offer no model differences and no particle difference (or at least differences that are so imperceptably small that they cannot be noticed: a la Pink Taric), and yet they still cost 975 RP instead of 750 or 520.

Quantum Weeb1 votes

Even though I absolutely love Redeemed Riven, in terms of quality is lags behind most 975 skins.

PhoenixSlayer131 votes

What really confuses me is how the new Draven skin is going to be 975 when it has more VO lines. Wouldn't that bump it up to 1350?

aceofsween1 votes

Same thing with Popstar Ahri, I would assume... It has all of the qualifications for a 1350 skin, except for maybe the fact that the model itself is the same. Things Mecha Kha'zix and Custom Piltover Blitzcrank would meet that criteria.

Linna Excel1 votes

I think the 1350 level needs both significant model changes and heavy particle work.

For Ahri... IMO she probably got an exception because riot knew there was a ton of demand for that skin as there was a 20k post thread or something crazy asking for her to be done. You can make things cheaper if you know they are going to sell well. That skin had a great chance of selling well.

Also with that kind of fan support, it'd be risky to price her at the "this is never going on sale" tier. I mean how do you think people would feel about fan-suggested skins if you knew they'd always be the really expensive ones?

Finally I think the 1350s need to be the most justified because if you are the type of person who get's things on sale, you can almost get 3 sale price normal skins for that much. Or a normal price skin and an on sale skin.

ItsBroham1 votes

Nice Sug

Thales1 votes

The bar on quality is constantly rising. Shurima Desert Zilean was a pretty impressive skin for its time, with significant model work, I believe changes to the animation rigging for his clock-hands, and even different colored particles on his Q.

For me, I value a skin that produces a change in the way a character feels. Toy Soldier Gangplank is an excellent example, with his mechanical walk animation and disassembly on death. So from this perspective, I'm not too big on Night Hunter Rengar. Nonetheless, from a technical point of view, NHR is quite impressive. In general, the standard has risen. It's been a long time since we've had a 975 skin without a unique recall animation, and the level of work on particles and sounds has continued to improve.

I'm interested in seeing what the deal is with the new Draven skin. Riot has dabbled in skins with alternate VO lines at levels below Legendary. First Mecha Kha'zix, then Mafia Jinx, then (possibly; I'm not sure I trust the wiki on this) Battlecast Vel'koz, and most recently and spectacularly Pentakill Karthus. Are they considering lowering complete new voiceover down below Legendary? Certainly, the changes to Primetime Draven's animations and particles are unremarkable for a 975 skin, but I do unfortunately find it more likely that it's at 975 due to special circumstances rather than this being a permanent ratchet in skin quality. After all, if a 975 skin can have new particles, sounds, animations, and a whole new VO, what can a legendary skin have uniquely to set itself apart?

aceofsween1 votes

I'm well aware of that. That's why countless numbers of skins dropped in price from 975 to 520 and 750. My question is about the remaining skins which are no longer in the 975 quality range, but were not moved down to a lower price point with the rest.

Thales1 votes

The big skin price adjustment was a one-time thing that happened a while ago, before the dramatic rise in skin quality we're seeing now. Making it a continuous process would have unfortunate effects. The community would always want to treat the baseline for 975 as higher than it currently is, and even legitimately good skins would have people going clamoring for Riot to drop the price to 750. If they do drop the price, everyone who bought the skin before then will complain, and not without cause. And what happens when 975 skins get so very good that even semi-recent legendaries cannot compare? Price-protected legendaries, if I may add.

They have done a certain amount of adjusting to skin pricing since then, but expect mass repricings to be a very rare occurrence.

aceofsween1 votes

That's just completely false.

The "dramatic rise in skin quality" you mentioned happened around the time Hecarim was released. Reaper Hecarim is miles above the quality levels of most release skins. The following champion release, Varus, was when they shifted two releasing only 1 new skin on champion release due to the increased work load of making higher quality skins.

This was well before the across-the-board price adjustment. Regardless, it still doesn't change the fact that several skins are below the threshold for a 975 skin.

Thales2 votes

Well, it's hard to pinpoint exactly when the rise was. One further review, I'm not sure there really was a dramatic rise at all, so much as two years of steady improvement.

Certainly, Reaper Hecarim is not part of new order. It has changes to its model and splash art, but that's nothing new. Its sounds, animations, voiceover, and particles are all identical to the base skin. If anything, that's a step back from prior release skins like Mad Scientist Ziggs and Bittersweet Lulu, which altered spell effects and in Ziggs's case sounds.

I do agree that reducing the number of release skins to one was an important milestone, though it didn't pay immediate dividends. Blight Crystal Varus is pretty unremarkable, and though Lord Darius has the distinction of being the first skin with a recall animation, that's just because Darius was the first champion with a recall animation. Soul Reaver Draven, however mediocre it may be, is where release skins started to always have distinct particles. From there on, most skins had particle changes.

Oktoberfest Gragas was the first skin to have a unique recall animation. This didn't really catch on until Neon Strike Vi, and didn't become ubiquitous until Celestine Soraka. Soon after that point, between Special Weapon Zac and the Freljord event, on April 11, 2013, we had the grand skin repricing announcement. This actually is later than I expected. Since then, we've had significantly increased prevalence of sound changes in skins, the beginnings of voiceover changes making it down below Legendary, and an increase in extra stuff, like different dance animations, or Night Hunter Rengar's toggleable hood.

This strikes me as a consistent rise starting in the summer of 2012 and still continuing. Still, even though the price guidelines were established over a year ago, they don't seem wholly outdated. The requirements for a 975 skin are the same as for a 750 skin: new model, texture, and splash. Above that, 975 skins may have animation, particle, and/or sound changes. Certainly, by modern standards, Hextech Janna is a terrible skin. But by modern standards, Rocket Girl Tristana falls short, and that skin was widely acclaimed on its release. But by the strict definition of 975 laid out, both fit.

So what standard do we use to price skins, given that the level of skin released continues to grow? In a couple years, I expect Night Hunter Rengar to appear just as obsolete as Rocket Girl Tristana does today. If we have a creeping standard, where we drop RGT to 750 today, and then down to 520 in a year, this limits Riot if they do reach actual limits of skin quality. It might also reduce sales, as people know the price will permanently drop if they just wait a while. If we do ad hoc, that opens up even more problems, as Riot would be besieged by threads arguing that <SKIN THREAD STARTER WANTS TO BUY> isn't really up to standard for 975 and 1350.

I think the current system, arbitrary as it may be in places, is pretty good. It's a fixed, infrequently adjusted system, and that heads off a lot of problems, as well as gives Riot a lot of flexibility to grow the quality of skins or to devote resources elsewhere. I would not be surprised if they adjust it; under a strict ruling, even Mafia Jinx shouldn't be allowed to be priced as low as 975. And Primetime Draven, as impressive as the VO is, clearly falls short of legendary tier. But working well for 18 months is pretty good in my book.

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