Am I the only one who disagrees with MU (model update)?

Cacahao·Jul 25, 2014·11 votes·4,679 views

Hello! just wanted to share my opinion about model updates and ask a few questions.

First of all, I want to say that I like LoL in general, and as a prove of that I have spend few years and some money in my europe account, so this is not to blame Riot for their work, I'm just afraid of they favor MU over VU.

I'm afraid due to even if it upgrades the actual ingame model they dont make me feel the same "hype" and instead they seem like stealing time from VU work. So my question is... Why MU instead of a good VU directly?

To me MU feels like a fast patch on something that needs to be redone and that feels bad, and im afraid Rito stop making VUs :S

26 Comments

Rune OcarinaJul 25, 20145 votes

I also feel an MU is just a quick fix and would prefer a VU if it happened to my favorite champions. crosses fingers hoping Riven gets a VU in the future with some J or K pop dance like most of the other females in league

Also, I envy a lot of newer or recently VU champions who have loads of lines to say in game while older champions are extremely limited. I feel a champion who gets a MU is thrown to the back of the list in priorities for an actual VU and with the pace Riot is going at it could be years before we return to that champion.

ZondervainJul 25, 20141 votes

Although, to be fair, they are favoring older champions, such as Twitch and Karthus, and Sion, Urgot, and Poppy are high on the rework list.

CacahaoJul 25, 20141 votes

Yes, to be fair Twitch and Karthus were very close if we talk about time, but they stoped there, and since that all I have seen is the MU of Sona.

I'm not saying they are not doing their jobs, I just say that they shouldn't take away their VUs work in favor of MU or TU. To be honest, that little updates looks good, but you should stop and think that it will be removed when they apply their respectives VUs, so... seems like a waste of time that could be more productive, at least to me.

CacahaoJul 25, 20141 votes

Rammus is the worst example of it, he has the more money wise lines ever, and in the other hand we have a Karthus with 15 mins of lines.

Maybe that was other times, but old champions really need to get their well deserved VUs.

OrinneJul 25, 20141 votes

That was a texture update (TU), not an MU. Much less time for plenty of return.

CacahaoJul 25, 20141 votes

I know it was a TU. I was talking about how much old champion deserves a real update, because Rammus for example is only able to say "Ok" and "hmm".

And I am against TU too, at least if they take time from pending VUs. Anyway, I have read that Rammus TU was an independent work from their employees, not completely sure about this.

LithenaiJul 26, 20141 votes

Rammus is supposed to only say Ok and hmm, if you remove the ok or you add more to the ok it ruins the ok. It's kind of iconic in league now and I don't think Riot should mess with that.

CacahaoJul 27, 20141 votes

Rammus is supposed to be a champion of few words, if he does only say OK and HMM is because old champions has few phrases each one, as Kayle nearly only says "Into the fray" and she isn't supposed to be a champion of few words. Karthus didn't has too many lines until he had his VU.

Even if so, I agree with the fact that OK and HMM of Rammus should remain in a future VU.

RiotIronStylusJul 26, 20144 votes

So.. good points. It's something we discuss a lot internally. What's the scope?

Thing is, VU's do take a while. Especially depending on the champion. In general, here's some basic things that can effect scope:

Concept iteration - How many variations or possibilities of the champion are there before we settle on a direction and start production?

Model complexity - Does this character have multiple states/stances/etc? How many actual models and components does the champion need? Guy with a sword is a lot simpler than girl with 3 weapons.

Animation complexity - Does this character require significant secondary or tertiary animations such as cloth movement?

VFX complexity - Does this character have a ton of VFX? A melee champion might have less complex of a VFX load than a caster.

Skins - How many skins does the champion have and what complexity level are they?

Those are a few points that we mull over. VU's, in terms of art production, are as much work as an entire champion minus the kit. Essentially a VU is a kit-locked champion. When we go through our lists of potential VU's we grade the existing champion. Our producer had a cool idea to create an excel spread sheet where different artists from the various disciplines (Concept, 3D modelling, Animation, VFX) to grade each of those aspects of the champion. We did that, then cross-referenced those grades across different aspects of the champion such as visibility, pick rate, etc. Depending on the variables you highlight, different champions come to the top. We don't absolutely abide by what the document tells us, it's just a tool to quickly parse the data.

Generally, if a champion gets a poor grade across all of these categories we take action and take them in consideration for pre-production.

Thing is, there's some champions which while they don't have failing grades across those parameters, we still want to give them love. However a full-blown VU might not happen to them because they technically aren't some of the worst offenders. In these cases is where we consider model updates. If a character's rig is healthy then we can make a new model that fits the proportions of the rig and create a cleaner, more detailed, better textured model. While a VU that requires creating an entire character from scratch can take months, depending on the criteria I've listed above, a model update might take weeks.

This is all still a discussion we as a team are having. What's the best course? We want to be constantly delivering value to players. Is that done best by inching through characters one at a time through VU's? Or is it a tiered approach that included texture updates, model updates, and complete visual updates? I haven't yet decided. Though my personal thought is that some champions don't need the complete overhaul. I want us to be able to deliver maximum satisfaction to players, and not let thier favorite champions stay untouched for years. Texture updates and model updates are a way to compromise and optimize.

Would I like us to be able to burn through VU's faster? Yes, of course. However, right now we're only in a position to deliver the cadence of big projects at our current pace.

PhoenixUnrealJul 26, 20141 votes

I can understand that: In my animation class I had to recreate my main character - for reasons unspecified - and it took almost as long as coming up with the concept for him.

Also, that makes sense why Galio isn't high on the list; He looks great compared to champions his age. Despite Galio having a low (the lowest on most days) pick rate, I think Urgot, Sion, and Sona are on the right spot on the update list.

Thanks for the rundown!

CacahaoJul 27, 20141 votes

Hi IronStylus, thanks for answering me! :)

If I did undestand correctly, those TU's or MU's are some kind of tiered updates that will finally step by step become into a real VU. Am I right?

If so, and no offense, isn't it a waste of time? I mean, it sounds like an endless cycle of small updates that don't cause the same impact in comunity as a "real" VU do and will be replaced over time.

I am a simple art student and to be honest, I don't understand anything about champion creation or updates, I'm a simple drawer. But if Riot decides to do a Rammus VU for example it would erase his actual TU and replace it with a total new model and textures. So... isn't his actual TU time wasted? This is exactly what I feel about these minor updates, they are just something that will be totally replaced over time.

Personally, I prefer wait a bit longer and have a full update well done than small patch updates.

About how VU are released is another different "problem", and it isn't the main point of this discussion, but the question is not about having it done faster, is more about I would be glad if we could say that every X months (let's say 6 for example) we know we will see a VU. But as I said I have no idea about character creation or updates, so I prefer to not say much about this xD

EDIT: I've thinking about this for a while and... there is 1 case where old champions can get some love and don't feel patched as TU's do. In my opinion, updating skills icons is a good Idea and feels fine.

PD: Again thanks for answering me and sorry for my bad english, I know it could be hard to read :(

12talesJul 25, 20143 votes

I mean, if VUs could be produced in the same space of time, that'd obviously be great. Still, it's kinda like saying "I wish you'd have bought me that gift instead of the other one." If Riot is continuing its efforts to constantly update League's visuals, I'm happy, regardless of the scope of the individual changes.

CacahaoJul 25, 20141 votes

I don't think a regularized time for VUs is impossible, remember those days when they release a champion per month?

Nowadays they have said they cannot release a champion every month by different reasons, one of them is they have a large roster right now. Even if it is true the 2013-14 roster was not small, so maybe they are focused in other things.

I'm not against Riot but I think they should update their roster properly, both gameplay and visual, before give us small candies to keep us calm, as the MU of sona, the different TUs of anivia and rammus, or even the new icons of tryndamere.

I do valore these little things, but I hate they give me only the half of the cake.

12talesJul 25, 20141 votes

The champions they were releasing on a monthly basis back then were way, way lower quality than the VUs we're getting today. If you compare the new Karthus to someone released in 2012 - Karthus has, what, 4 times as many lines as Zed? It simply isn't fair to compare the amount of time they each take to produce.

CacahaoJul 25, 20141 votes

Even Zed is a champion of high quality compared to our oldests champions in League, I agree with you that Zed is inferior to Karthus but you are comparing their best work with a regular champion. What about Ashe or Katarina? Their are a lower quality VU compared to Karthus too, even Karma VU is placed in a bad spot when we compare both Karma and Karthus. It simply isn't fair to compare, in general.

You are comparing a high quality champion with a regular one. I'm afraid of them not updating correctly their old content and doing things like MUs or TUs that looks like an inferior qualitity regular champion update.

Anyway this trend is not about that, it is more about "I don't want MUs or TUs if that will steal time from VUs".

FlamecowzJul 25, 20142 votes

You're not alone my friend. I too feel that Model Updates are not that special. It's one thing if it is a completely different ingame model but i feel that a visual upgrade is much better.

CacahaoJul 25, 20142 votes

Sorry, maybe i didn't explain myself well.

What I'm trying to say is that I dont want a MU if that means a VU getting longer because they invested time in MU instead of VUs. I hope some red could say me "no! MUs dont take even a single second from VUs". If this is the case, then I agree with MUs or TUs (texture updates), if not... well, I just do not want them.

Mistress MadokaJul 25, 20141 votes

I Understand where you're coming from, but please keep in mind that when they do an MU they also tweak the textures to make sure they fit and look good. It's also good to make sure your 3D models continue to look up to date. For some examples of this failing, see Pantheon's feet, Taric, Urgot, and Gragas. However, oftentimes VU's entail an MU. These are often the less Drastic VU's, Like Soraka or Garen. The More drastic ones such as Twitch or Heimerdinger I wouldn't say have Model "Updates", but rather Model "Upgrades"

CacahaoJul 25, 20142 votes

Garen is a proper VU, don't confuse it with Sona's MU. Garen just recieved a non agressive VU, unlike old Karma and Trundle, but it is still a VU.

MUs are, in Riot words, a quickier form of VU, but I don't know in which degree.

What I'm trying with this trend is to avoid MUs and TUs as a norm, because feels like the champions who recieves one of them will be delayed even more because they "update them recently". And that's something that worry me a lot.

I repeat that I valore their effort at making this things.

Angry MonsterJul 26, 20141 votes

Is MU even a real term? never seen riot use it. I have seen the term texture update before though and i think you mean this. Actual champ models are done during a VU. VUs are complete overhall of the champ down to the rigging and a rebuild.

So a texture Update(TU) is for skins that just need a touch up to make them look better. These are often done as side projects to allow artist time to clear their head and take a break from constantly doing the same thing and getting lost.

To have the fear over VUs is sorta silly. Riot has never said that they are not going to do more VUs, in fact i think there is a list of at least 10 champs that they want to VU on. Vus almost as long as creating a champ from scratch.

CacahaoJul 27, 20141 votes

Some rioter mentioned actual PBE model changes of Sona as a MU or model update, but don't know who exactly.

Is not that I do not like TU or MU, is just I don't like the fact that if they spend 2 weeks in a TU, then the real VU will take 2 weeks more AND will replace it's previus TU, so they will take 2 weeks more to do a VU and will waste 2 weeks of time. Is like a silly patch for something that needs to be fixed.

Angry MonsterJul 27, 20141 votes

Trust me Riot is backlogged that any TU/MU done means that champ is not being looked at for a year+ for a VU. MU/TU still just means touch up. VU means complete overhaul(like SION).

CacahaoJul 27, 20141 votes

Even if I like little changes as Kassadin VFX updates, icons updates, and anything else... Maybe is just my opinion, but that are a lot of "they only take a few weeks" that is time they are not doing VU. Maybe they are doing right or not, I don't know, but I don't like the idea of wasting time and VU's taking longer.

VU's are different from complete overhaul, Sion Trundle or Karma are examples of a complete overhaul, while Garen Twitch and Karthus are just VU. Visual updates just takes away their old visual and refresh them with a new one, while complete overhauls do change they indentity, visuals and sometimes kit.

Anyway I don't feel myself representative of the community, or at least I think so, I'm just exposing my opinion. If they have chosen the right or the wrong option is something I don't know, I'm just saying I don't like it completely.

Angry MonsterJul 27, 20141 votes

Likether Rioter said. A VU is not a few weeks. Its like 8+ months of work. If a MU/TU only takes 2 weeks for overall improvement (while working on other things) they are doing it right.

CacahaoJul 28, 20141 votes

Is a 8+ months of work, that's right, but it will be taking longer and loinger each time they make an small patch. So instead that, they have a well scheluded VU work, probably they would be able to release VU's more consistently. I'm not saying that they do their work faster, is a VU's and they have stated multiple times, one in this discussion included, that VU's takes time to do. I'm just saying that they could organize their work better and deliver more propperly VU's.

I personally would prefer to see only 4 VU's per year if I would know that they will release 1 VU each 3 months rather than a few VU's relatively fast and then wait for a uknown amount of time untill next one.

Anyway, those 2 weeks of fast little improvement, are 2 weeks more to a VU's that will replace your 2 weeks update. That's is what I don't like, is a waste of time.