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Anyone want to help me think up possible duos to replace a ranged ADC?

MrSc0tty··10 votes·6,941 views

I realize people like to think of the meta as set in stone, but I think this shift of Lucian from botlane bully to what looks like an awesome toplane bully duelist, and the success of Vayne and Quinn in top is indicative that an alternate team comp may potentially exist to compete with Bruiser top/Bruiser or tank jungle, Mage or assassin mid, support and ADC bot. That comp being standard mid+jungle+support, with ADC solo top and something else bot farming. But the question is, what? I have a couple ideas on the subject.

Idea 1) Mana building or Manaless DPS Mage with traditional support

Examples: Swain, Vladimir, Kennen, Ryze, Casseopia paired with Janna, Nami, Sona The big problem that any alternate comp runs into is the huge poke potential of a standard ADC/supp composition. I believe a traditional support dedicated to dealing out and mitigating poke is the absolute key to the success of any lane that isn't a pure and simple kill lane. Pairing up with a support is a great way to unlock the potential of hypercarry champions who lack strong early games, and with mitigation from the usual harass frees up champions like Swain and Ryze to pursue their mana heavy builds on earlier backs rather than having to worry about trading 1vs1.

Idea 2) Melee carry+anti-poke support.

Examples: Yasuo, Fiora, Aatrox paired with Janna, Lulu, Thresh, or Braum Aka the one the community REAAAAAAALLY wants to see. The trouble is, it's hard to have a team comp without a rADC to siege late game. Well, lucky for us we've stuck ours top so the question is would this kind of comp work at all? My gut reaction is yes, but it would have a different set of counters and strong matchups than you'd expect. The key would be to successfully unlock the level six power spike without being extremely behind due to early harass. Lanes like Sona/Cait would be a nightmare, but traditional ADC/support kill lanes wouldn't stand a chance against, say, the raw engaging power of a Yasuo+Braum where Yasuo can E in, Braum can follow him and they can lock someone down with two projectile blocks and over four seconds of hard CC post level six. Surviving to that point and farming is just a matter of managing wind wall and bulwark to avoid harass.

Idea 3) Champions who lack a level 6 power spike

Examples: Elise, Jayce, Nidalee, Teemo paired with any support but particularly Karma ADC/support lanes are strong because their early potential is huge even pre-six. Their level 2 or 3 spike, on average, trumps their 6 spike in terms of game impact. To compete with a 6-reliant champion, you need heavy amounts of turtling to avoid the fullisade or harassment or the deadly all ins. Or, you need to find a duo with a similar cadence to compete at their own game. Early bullying, mana efficient all ins and level two and three power spikes is what the form-shift champions (and Teemo, who has a great deal of his power budget in his blind+poison level 2) do, for the most part, and usually they do it toplane as early denial bullies or jungling as heavy duelists. But why wouldn't it work just as well bot? The harass potential of a Jayce+Sona lane, or the hard engage of a Leona+Elise is an unexplored bit of game space because of how hard those kinds of "cheese comps" fall off late game without a ranged ADC. Thoughts? Ideas? Again, to reiterate, the idea here is to send a duelist ADC like Quinn, Lucian or Vayne top to deny CS from the enemy top and free farm, while another champion takes their place farming up bot.

53 Comments

RiotStayAwhileNlistn5 votes

I'm thinking double bruiser bot composed of:

  1. an early game menace who would run a support item (coin or targon's) and ultimately become the lategame tank. I'm thinking Renekton, as he can all-in at 3 with a nice power spike.

  2. A late-game hypercarry to take all the early farm. I'm thinking Jax/Irelia.

Plan would be to play conservatively til level 3/4, then dive the ADC+Support, either killing them or pushing them to their turret, at which point your jungler comes in and you go for the 3v2 or 3v1 dive.

Jungler should be cc-heavy off-tank to make dives more successful and provide peel in teamfights.

Final composition would be main tank, off-tank, ranged AD hypercarry, melee AD hypercarry, AP carry. Heavy frontline, tons of damage.

Possible specific comp: Renekton, Jax, Vayne, Nautilus, Ziggs (for siege and counter-siege)

I would be scared of this team.

Rygart Arrow2 votes

I would personally prefer Sejuani over Nautilus simply because her Q is easier to land and peel with, along with the fact that her slow is amazing. Even if you whiff the stun on her ult, you'd still get a massive slow off to engage on if you're in position to do so, or use it to peel, which I think is faster than Nautilus' ult.

Sir ArmaMalum3 votes

I do love me a good meta breaking session, I don't have a lot of time at this very moment but I will back to expand on this.

I've had varied success with some fun bot lane match ups,

Ziggs+Yasuo

LeBlanc+Urgot (Not original, but fun nonetheless)

Lulu+Zyra

They key to coming up with a viable rival meta is two fold, to abuse the weaknesses of the current meta (i.e. ranged adc/mage vs melee bruiser top) and to not introduce too many weaknesses to it elsewhere (i.e. adc shutdown by numerous ganks, bot lane lacking poke). As such, if I may suggest that if you're determined to keep the adc top to include a light fighter or other form of AD carry elsewhere to address the potential of a camped top lane. One idea that I've seen talked about actually means double ranged adc (top and mid) and two heavy damage mages bot lane, with a tank in jungle. It's weak to counter jungling and heavy dive comps, but gives a real shake up to the current meta.

Worgslarg1 votes

I do love me a good meta breaking session, I don't have a lot of time at this very moment but I will back to expand on this.

I've had varied success with some fun bot lane match ups,

Ziggs+Yasuo

LeBlanc+Urgot (Not original, but fun nonetheless)

Lulu+Zyra

They key to coming up with a viable rival meta is two fold, to abuse the weaknesses of the current meta (i.e. ranged adc/mage vs melee bruiser top) and to not introduce too many weaknesses to it elsewhere (i.e. adc shutdown by numerous ganks, bot lane lacking poke). As such, if I may suggest that if you're determined to keep the adc top to include a light fighter or other form of AD carry elsewhere to address the potential of a camped top lane. One idea that I've seen talked about actually means double ranged adc (top and mid) and two heavy damage mages bot lane, with a tank in jungle. It's weak to counter jungling and heavy dive comps, but gives a real shake up to the current meta.

Just go for the right mages. Ori/ Annie/ Lissandra all come to mind as mages who can make a dive a very dangerous thing.

MrBuffington3 votes

SolWolf on Youtube has a bunch of videos where he and a friend take a weird/off-meta duos into bot lane and does pretty well.

I've played against a Darius+Garen bot lane, I had no idea what to do since they're so freaking tanky, and if Darius hooks you, you're basically dead. So they basically can zone you way the heck out and you can't really poke them since they take no damage.

In terms of actually intelligent choices, I think we need to remember that bot lane is in bot lane because they don't need as much experience (and in the case of the support, gold) to do well in the game. Champions that fit this profile would probably have more success. As you mentioned, champions without a true ult (or ult available at lvl 1) could do some work, as well champions who are AA based and don't need the points in their abilities as much.

Sir ArmaMalum7 votes

Ok, I take no pride in admitting this, but I did at one time lose against an AD-crit Alistar and AP Pantheon bot lane, by and far the most ridiclous bot lane I've ever seen work.

They were very good players in their own right and I'll admit my bud and I weren't having the best day for league, but when that Ali ulted for the massive AD boost and crit me 3 times in a row..... I was too surprised to be mad. And then there was the Panth ult nuke that pretty much killed my entire team in one go......

MrBuffington1 votes

Oh yea, I got crushed by the Darius+Garen lane, that's why I remember it, lol. That game sounds hilarious though, I kind of want to try it, ahaha.

Sir ArmaMalum2 votes

If you can make sure the enemy bot lane has little to no dashes, have both laners get Targon's and get the Alistar to get an avarice blade ASAP. Try getting some crit chance runes on the Ali as well. Stick by turret, try to cheese an early kill with a headbutt and stun and go from there. Step-by-step to a pulverised bot lane, XD.

MrBuffington1 votes

lol, the recent Alistar buffs make me want to play him more and more

Beowitz1 votes

Though I wouldn't say I'm anywhere near being a good player yet, My brother and I went up against a Hiemerdinger/Ziggs bot lane in a game and that threw me off pretty hard. Ziggs poked us from afar, and if we tried to get in close Hiemer had 3 turrets ready to lay into us. That match went bad for other reasons too, but that part was pretty surprising to me XD

YouMyMainSqueeze2 votes

Watch Ryan Choi play rengar with blitzcrank bot lane always seems to work.

Dr Clueless PhD1 votes

So, I don't want to rain on your parade, but there are only two examples (at the highest level of play) where swapping the ADC out of bot lane worked even remotely well. This shit can totally work in lower ranks, because anything works down here. But, for true competitive play, there are only two:

  1. Goose used to run Leona/Jarvan in bot lane, ran it as a pure kill lane to stomp the enemy ADC, and stop them from farming. They had a good run, but eventually, the teams learned to play around it, shot for late-game, and got their ADC the farm to end the game anyway. Goose didn't have an ADC on their team anywhere, mostly because the other teams focused on picks that would crush ADC's in solo lanes.

  2. Dragonborns did well with Soraka/AP Nidalee for a while, I THINK using Ezreal mid primarily. They had limited success, but the strategy ultimately proved very unreliable.

MrSc0tty3 votes

A couple notes here:

  1. supports lacked Gold at that point. In this meta where supports dictate trades and even sometimes help CS (Targon) I feel that a support can more easily protect a farmer from harass.

  2. I'm not saying an rADC isn't essential late game for a team comp. That's why I'm conditionally saying that you'd send the ADC top

  3. you know what else doesn't work in the top level of play? Almost anything. Solo lane tops. Tank junglers. Assassins. We have 2v0 lane swaps, 4 viable junglers, 3 viable ADCs, and 3 viable tops. Anyone who expects an interesting meta shift at the pro level is delusional because pros play optimally. There are urgots and poppies and Sions in Diamond 1 and Challenger, if something's got a niche where it works consistently why not experiment?

Linna Excel1 votes

I did a double assassin bot lane once, that was fun. Jax, Yi, or Fiora could probably replace the ADC if you knew how to use them. TBH you could also go with a mage bot instead of an ADC, particularly if your mid is AD.

MrSc0tty1 votes

Which assassins? How did you split farm? How did you avoid harass?

Linna Excel1 votes

I was Ahri, the other person was Katarina. It's been awhile so I don't remember much of the details.

As I recall I let Kat take more of the CS than I took. I was ranged so avoiding harass was normal for me. Kat could just E out if needs be.

Basically it was if I hit my charm we got a kill... we had something like 25 kills between us and carried the game while top, mid and jungle were trying to surrender because they were all losing their lanes.

Lenox0071 votes

I've always seen double-bruiser bot or support/bruiser bot do terribly. 15-20 deaths total type of terrible while the rest of the team had 2-3 each. That being said, I'd love to see this. I don't like playing rADCs.

MrSc0tty2 votes

Yeah that becomes just a cheese kill lane reliant on the level 2 double kill. I tried to mostly avoid that sort of thing in favor of a sustainable lane that could stand up to the heat of an ADC/supp.

Tasgal1 votes

Thing is it is sustainable to do double bruiser. Both buy targon's to farm up and use that kill potential deterrent to zone them. Once they're zoned, freeze lane. You just have to pick people that can eat poke or zone them so far that they can't poke. See > Taric, Blitz, Pantheon, Sion, Riven, Renekton, Urgot, Malphite, etc.

SilasBane1 votes

You go mage and a support bottom lane. It gives you a chance to use those non-mobile ap carries that are otherwise quite good. Supports that provide ap boosts (like lulu,) or raka as obvious options. Kayle also works well bottom with a support.

When this happens, you swap someone who can bully an AP to middle, like fiora or lee sin.

I enjoy these comps a lot, and it's very doable--but you have to have an entire team on board that wants to practice it in order to shut down the enemies.

MrSc0tty1 votes

I do not think either Soraka or Lulu provide AP boosts...

Sona does though? Hymn of valor? And Tarics ult too.

Rygart Arrow1 votes

I believe Lulu does give an AP boost with her speed-up. I may just be remembering wrong, though.

MEMEME6701 votes

She used to, I believe this was changed around the same time season 4 started.

She does not at the moment though.

Shortyme1 votes

Lulu's Whimsy used to grant extra ap, and raka's q shreds mr, so it sort of acts as an ap boost.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

Ifyou have good synergy between players and some synergy between champions you can make almost any duolane work... some of my favourites:

  • mao/elise
  • shen/zed
  • lee/j4
  • janna/garen
  • nami/fizz (yea, i love theme-comps)
ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

I ran Braum/Rengar botlane once.

Braum's free stun and Rengar's massive (And more importantly, AA-modifier based) burst lead to tons of kills because of just how fast Rengar could tear into their ADC. It's not great against poke/sustain combos but in a meta dominated by hardcore initiation, it's amazing.

GG Beers1 votes

Add BLitz to any bruiser and you can do just fine. They'll stay out of harass range because of Blitz so you can farm, when a hook lands the burst of most tops will destroy an ADC.

Skaiz1 votes

I like doing some meta breaking when I'm bored, and one of my favorite lanes is Ziggs + Soraka

It actually has a lot of synergy. Soraka has her MR shred on her Q, and gives crazy mana while Ziggs is free to avoid itemizing mana and can instead build damage while poking the enemies out of lane, and most bot lanes tend to itemize less MR than armor. Ziggs can also cover for soraka's lack of peel with Satchel Charge and Minefield. Ziggs also had oppressive AA range which has been nerfed slightly, but is still quite good. This lane is very strong at denying farm early game while also being quite safe and strong.

Uncrøwned1 votes

the old Lee and riven worked pretty well against adcs without a giant escape like tristana, jarvan and another cc heavy champ works

DarthAlan1 votes

I love a MORG / LUX duo bot. 2 snares 2 shields, Morgs ult stuns while Lux's kills. A dual clarity keeps the mana flow up , and you don't have to worry who gets last hit n minions. If you want to build lux up fast you have morg lay her puddle then lux can bomb to clean up the minions. I have tried this combo several times and haven't lost the lane yet. Late game u have 2 high damage cc powered nightmares. If you like or are interested in trying this, I love to morg add me. Darthalan

Lasersniped1 votes

Two combos that I've had a lot of success with are Soraka/Cassiopeia and Annie Rengar.

Cassiopeia plays similarly to a short range adc already so it's not much of a difficult transition period and you don't lose out on sustained dps. Soraka provides the ability to keep her topped off with mana. Annie/Rengar works because of the strong burst potential. Establish early bush control and you pretty much have all-in potential against most traditional bot-lanes.

Also, running AD sion with a cc support works out most of the time.

Lewd Neeko1 votes

I've seen Thresh and Blitz bot a couple times and while it doesn't always work, when it does, you are most definitely screwed. Or maybe I just suck xD But seriously, you can get grabbed and hooked and silenced and slowed and knocked up. Ahhh the cc! Also, my friend and I went Karthus and Soraka bot once and the other lane got destroyed. So I guess mage + support bot could work since bot lane doesn't normally build MR. Kinda squishy though, so you'd probably want a support that could heal.

DropKick Slang1 votes

If you are looking for specifically a mage oriented bot lane try zilean/sona. I've gone on extended win streaks with this combo. Rush lich bane on sona and spellthief on zilean. Its fun and can induce rage quits.

Khodexus1 votes

I've always loved running Vladimir with a high damage or MR shredding support bot lane, or with a melee bruiser (at which point Vlad focuses a little more on damage himself, but still grabs a Targon's brace).

I've also thoroughly enjoyed playing Yasuo with either Janna or Nami as support. Both times had a solid ranged carry top lane, like Jayce, or Draven (Draven does surprisingly well solo, I've noticed).

Another pair I've tried and loved was Cassiopeia as the bot lane carry, with Teemo running support. We zoned them so incredibly hard because any time they got close they'd get poisoned by both champs and then twin-fanged to death in very short order. For this game we also had a Sivir mid, which also works quite well.

I've also done Vlad and Jax top, with an Urgot in bot lane. That was odd, but interesting. Urgot didn't precisely win lane, but he was able to hold off the enemy from doing too well, and up top we absolutely destroyed against an enemy Renekton, as well as their jungler, who iirc was Rengar. Honestly forget who was mid, but our jungler was free to gank both mid and bot, and picked up a few kills for both lanes. We won pretty solidly that game.

I also enjoy taking Diana bot lane as a carry, but have yet to determine who the beast teammate for her is down there.

I've also taken Vladimir/Fiddlesticks bot a few times, and enjoyed it every time. Vlad actually plays the carry in this scenario, and focuses on farming, while Fiddlesticks gets a mana+gold item, and focuses on harassing, and thus conserving mana for those deadly trades.

Ahri and Fiddlesticks similarly works solidly well.

In fact, any mage with Fiddlesticks support I imagine would do well in alot of ways.

The Red Warden1 votes

Who needs an adc when you can steal the enemy's(Mordekaiser huehuehue hue)

The6DollarMan1 votes

Singed + Displacement

kill lane?

Angry Monster1 votes

These off meta duo bot lanes can be fun. But they all have 2 issues.

1 they tend to fall off.

2 they can not siege well.

My favortie two combos is panth xin or jax xin. Xin when he is a little ahead can take towers just as fast as jax. With them together you can run a crazy split push comp. But if your team does not know how to presure up or one of your lanes fails hard(never ahppen in league) you can run into a brick wall of fighting under towers.

Also adcs usually bring some form of safe wave clear. So you are going to lose that in the late game also.

MrSc0tty1 votes

You lose late game siege potential if the ADC is not in botlane?

If I have a Lucian who has been free farming top, does he not have very slightly (exp) more power than a carry who'd be dealing with a 2v2 and getting harassed and denied creeps? If Lucian is up against a melee champ who can't necessarily deny those cs from him, then the only danger is the ganks from the jungler.

ShieldWarrior1 votes

Leona/Rengar, Win ur lane and gank Every where. its lvl 6 power is garenty kill.

Noam Braumsky1 votes

I think Xin Zhao with Leona support would work really well.

shazb0t1 votes

It's not about how strong the champions are in lane. Just about any other type of duo in the game could beat an AD+Support duo in lane, honestly. The reason we have those two specific types of champs in bot lane is because in this metagame, AD "carries" are actually just glorified tower pushers that happen to need lots of gold to do anything. So we put them in a lane with a babysitter, give them as much farm as possible, and hope they don't die. It's about objective control.

Serpents Embrace1 votes

This is an important point. You don't pick (most) ADCs for their laning potential, you pick them for the DPS the offer on Dragon/Baron/Towers/Teamfights.

Lord Zanroar1 votes

Panth and Naut

GenWaltz1 votes

Fiora/Pantheon does fairly well, both are able to shrug off some harass, targons on panth, and fiora heals while csing. All ins every trade would be terrifying, and at 6 its usually an easy kill on the adc

xXSomeoneElse1 votes

im not sure if this has been mentioned yet but I greatly enjoy doing a Yorick Sion bot lane I always have decent success with this and I recommend givin it a try.

L7xLoTek1 votes

Well, I know there's been a lot of success with a Darius/Shen bot (tons of potential in double bruiser double targon), but for some fun you can always play Veigar ADC, so you're both AD and AP carry at the same time. Then there's the double burn bot of Annie/Brand, and I guess you could also roll any other Mage/Mage-support lane. I've also run into some Support/Support lanes (Soraka/Sona, Alistar/Blitz etc).

I Main Swain1 votes

I played a really stupid ranked match once with Caitlyn mid, me as thresh adc/support for our zed adc, and an orianna top. Every single one of us wrecked face. I had already thought of the other 2 lane ideas (cait mid and ori top) and wasn't surprised to find that they were both viable and strong, but my bot lane shocked me. I would just land a pull on one of them, and as soon as we hit level 3, every time I hit my hook they would die garunteed. our burst was absolutely insane. our entire team went legendary, and my end score was 22 1 9.

F8 TECH1 votes

I have a friend who has mastered Yasuo. So when me and my friends play off-meta we go with a Volibear supp, and Yasuo ADC.

Once they reach level six, the enemy bot-lane can't even leave their tower, because they will just get flipped and ulted. And Yasuo's wind-wall keeps them from getting poked to death.

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